Keith Moon, the drummer of The Who, has this quote that I really love where he said, “I am the greatest Keith Moon-style drummer in the world.” And I’ve just… I really love that. I relate to it like I feel like I kind of invented a way for myself to be on the radio. I think it’s a good target to invent the thing that’s going to be exactly right for you. There came a point in my twenties where I was just like, “I want to do stories about everyday people.” People who aren’t in the news. Just, like, just document everyday, normal life. To be really honest was, I didn’t know anything about journalism. I didn’t want to talk to famous people. That seemed terrifying. I had no interest in them. I didn’t even know what it would be to be a reporter. It just, I understood what it would be to talk to regular people. And it was really a puzzle to figure out, like, “How do you do that in a way that would be compelling and exciting to listen to?” Coming up and you’re trying to invent the person you’re trying to be, you’re trying to turn yourself into this person who you want to be, it’s debilitating and you feel terrible so much of the time, and you really have to be a soldier. You really just have to, like, get in there and fight and just make stuff. Just force yourself to make stuff. It’s really hard to do. Often, when I give speeches, I play stuff. Lately, I’ve been going around playing a thing that’s from my eighth year. And as I pointed out to the audience, in eight years, you could become a surgeon. You know what I mean? Like, in eight years, you could learn another language and be fluent in it. You could learn anything in eight years and I’m still, like, awful. It just took me so long and I really wished somebody had told me that that’s normal. I started This American Life in 1995 but I really viewed it as kind of like, as like, an indie film kind of thing. Like, “Some people like this.” “It’s not going to be for everybody.” And really, our business plan was, “If we could get on 60 radio stations in two years, that would be incredible.” In our first year, we signed up a hundred stations. Half of them were signing up to get the pledge material. They’d say, “Can we get the pledge material?” Like, “You have to take the show.” And they’d put us on weird times. Like, it was fine with me. Like, I don’t need them to take it because they like it. Like, I don’t need them to take it because we were making something new. I don’t need them to see it the way I see it. I just need to get on the air. And I feel like the more idealistic and idiosyncratic your project is, I think the more cunning you have to be about the business side of it. And you really have to think about who you’re selling to and what do you have to say. What do you have to do to give them something that they’ll want? And I see no shame in that. Like, I think that one of the most common things in the world is people who do really beautiful work and it doesn’t find an audience. It took us four years to get to a million listeners per episode, whereas it took Serial, our first podcast, four weeks, and it took S-Town, our second podcast, four days. It’s normal for it to be hard. Like, it’s hard for me, you know? And I’ve been making these stories for years and years and years. I think a lot of us when we start, we have kind of a dutiful idea of like, what’s important for us to do that then can push us off of the thing that’s going to be good and actually truly original and valuable. Be in it for your own pleasure. Notice what you’re interested in. Follow that. Be out for your own fun. Be out for your own curiosity. Like, that’s the only way anything’s going to be good.